Meet Benjamin Saulsberry: A What's Good Project Interview
Please make the acquaintance of Mr. Benjamin Saulsberry, the Public Engagement and Museum Education Director of the Emmett Till Interpretive Center (ETIC) in Sumner, Mississippi (pop. 310). I met Benjamin in 2019 during an impromptu trip to Sumner to visit the ETIC, and he was gracious enough to agree to be interviewed a couple months later. Please enjoy a few snippets of our 2019 conversation - lightly edited for clarity.
Mr. Benjamin Saulsberry, Public Engagement and Museum Education Director, Emmett Till Interpretive Center, Sumner, Mississippi. Photo credit: Saulsberry Music Facebook page.
JD: So can you tell me a little bit about yourself, if you wouldn't mind?
BS: Sure. So as you probably already know, my name is Benjamin Saulsberry, not to be confused with the steak, which is spelled entirely different by the way. I'm a native of Tallahatchie County, born and raised in the area. I'm now [37] years old. I work at the Emmett Till Interpretive Center as the Public Engagement and Museum Education Director, which is just a fancy way of saying, "I do whatever our Executive Director doesn't do." But mostly, I get the opportunity to meet with visitors, be they a single, small party or large group. I'm also a singer-songwriter. I'm a signed artist with an independent label outside of Clarksdale, Mississippi, known as Influential Music.
I did my undergraduate at Valley, which is about 40, 41 miles or so south of here. I’m a former teacher or at least from the traditional standpoint. And this is where I am today.
JD: How long have you worked here?
BS: I started volunteering March 2016.
JD: Oh, wow. Okay.
BS: Yeah. And then I got picked up part-time January that following year.
JD: Have you seen things in the area change over your lifetime at all?
BS: Well, in some ways, yes, and then in some ways, not so much. Or rather they're-- I think they're yet changing. For example, and this isn't me trying to put a plug in for the place or the town but--growing up, this square, in particular, and this town in particular, was pretty much recognized as an all-white town and all-white square. You fast forward and now you have businesses owned and operated by African American women.
JD: That's great.
Exterior of the Emmett Till Interpretive Center, Sumner, Mississippi. Photo: Jennifer Drinkwater.
BS: Yeah. And I think a part of that has to do with the fact that this town and community-- or rather this county and community began a process of racial reconciliation officially in 2007, but it actually kind of started around 2005.
In the beginning, those conversations were a little bit more informal. They were comparable to town hall meetings in different places. And it kind of gained a little bit more depth and teeth, so to speak around very early 2007. And from there, the Emmett Till Memorial Commission came about, and they've been trying in some ways to cultivate racial harmony here. In some ways, I think it's safe to say if had it not happened, it's questionable as to whether or not this space wouldn't be here, but then us having a space to have this conversation and having businesses owned and operated by folk of color.
Having said that, there're some things that, like I said, are still-- they're somewhat in flux, right. First of all, we're trying to actually live out the stuff we work towards every day as it pertains to the whole racial harmony thing. The reality around it is this building, this organization has existed or came about, came to fruition in the spring of 2015. We're still a very young organization. And this work with folk being here day to day is a four-year-old work as opposed to better than a 100-plus years or more speaking of this county and community specifically, working through some historical issues and customs and practices.
So, yeah, apart, aside from divine intervention, I don't see it changing overnight. And even with divine invention, I just think a part of that time has to take place when we're talking about lasting, measurable change. It has to happen over the course of time.
JD: What instigated the 2005 conversation? What were the series of events that led to that?
BS: Yeah, well, I have to go back to the '90s. Yeah. But I won't park there. Early '90s.
JD: Okay. I love this. This is great.
BS: In the early '90s, this county elected and seated two African American males for the first time on the Board of Supervisor level. In almost any rural county, your Board of Supervisors are basically your major decision-makers and policymakers or adopters. They have a lot of responsibilities as it pertains to the disbursement of tax dollars and how they'll be used, and this and that.
So, in a county that has been predominantly African American, probably even before its inception, this is the first time you're starting to see Black folk have representation. And that wasn't without pushback. Even then, even after they won, they had to sue the county to get seated. And that's the condensed version of some of the stuff that happened.
And by they, I mean Bobby Banks and the late Jerome G. Little, who would end up being able to serve in the offices that they ran and won. So the late Jerome G. Little very early in his tenure as Supervisor, he was very public about his disdain with the Emmett Till tragedy, specifically the trial that took place in Tallahatchie County, and how these two guys [Roy Bryant and J.W. Milam] were found not guilty by an all-white, all-male jury and would later sell their confession to Look Magazine. The fact is the Look Magazine confession, a lot of the things that they said or didn't say brings it into question, although there's still no debate as to whether or not they were active participants in the abduction and murder, because they were. But, the details they gave were basically given as a means and ways of halting or impeding any further investigation of any other persons that were a part of that tragedy, which, at the time, we found out they literally profited off of all that, literally profited.
And so that bothered Jerome a little. From what I understand, he stayed in relatively consistent communication with the late Mamie Till. And he told her very early upon being seated that he was going to make it a point to do everything he could to bring justice on behalf of her.
And so in the early 2000s, he was able to help get the highway named after Emmett Till. It became the Emmett Till Memorial Highway. But then he also was again still looking for ways to bring about justice, which is a tough thing considering the main culprits had already died at this time. There wasn't any major evidence brought to light that would indict and/or point to other persons that were part of the criminal act that took place against Emmett Till. And so I think in some ways, I think that spurred his attention to the county and the county people. This was around 2005, where our county and the different towns in the county started hosting these conversations around what is race and racism, what is racial reconciliation, and what would that look like here? Again, those conversations continued up through to late 2006, maybe very early 2007.
JD: And did you get representation from the white community in those conversations?
BS: Interesting question. It wasn't until 2007 that the early members of the Emmett Till Memorial Commission contacted another nonprofit organization housed on the campus of the University of Mississippi. The name of that organization is the William Winter Institute.
JD: For Racial Reconciliation?
BS: Exactly. And they have a credible track record in the area of helping communities foster and work through traumatic incidents or traumatic occurrences within a given proximity. And I think one that they're most known for is the work they did in Neshobo County, where three civil rights workers (Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman) were murdered during Freedom Summer. And so this organization being one that for the most part stemmed and originated in Mississippi and actually helped a Mississippi county that's comparable to Tallahatchie was all the more reason for those early Memorial Commission members to reach out to the William Winter Institute. And so they did.
And they said, "We'd be happy to help. The only real condition we have concerning this is--" and I'm not sure this is what they said, but I've been told that-- and again, I don't want to be lying. But I think they said we had to have appropriate or accurate representation, which was just a really nice way to say, "You've got to have black and white folks talking about this stuff." And that was why we contacted them in the first place because at that time, those conversations were exclusively African American and not by design, right? Nobody had “Black Folks Only” signs at these meetings. It's just an extremely hard thing for black and white folks to talk about here. And so in reaching out to the William Winter Institute, they actually contacted former Governor William Winter himself-- and he suggested they contact a lady by the name of Betty Pearson. Matter of fact, he said, "Y'all should contact my good friend Betty Pearson." Now, Betty Pearson is a native of Tallahatchie County. She grew up on, I believe, Rainbow Plantation, which is owned by her folks anywhere between five to seven generations now.
JD: Oh.
BS: Yeah. Now, I know you hear plantation owners, not always the most warm and coziest thoughts come to mind, but Betty Pearson is known for being a very fair, upright, down-to-Earth, will-say-whatever-she-feels-she-needs-to-say-wherever-she-is person. I think it's also safe to say, or is to be noted, that she's a former Marine. Well, I don't know if you should say former Marine about a person that's served, and I don't think you ever just stop being a Marine, right? I don't think you can wash that off you once you've gone through the process. But, I mean, just tough as nails.
JD: And this is a white woman?
BS: Yes, this is a white lady who in her early 20s actually attended the Emmett Till murder trial during the week that it was being held here, against the wishes of her family and some of her peers, of course, and it changed the way she saw the world around her. But it also kind of changed the way she saw herself, and so much so that it compelled her to try to take action, to just basically just be a better person to people. She has a book, I want to say it's called Delta Rainbow. At some point, just check it out.
But in reaching out to her-- again, she already had a reputation with folks on both sides, Black and white. They just told her what was going on. The early members of the Commission told her the initiative that was taking place, and we wanted to find ways to ensure that our whole community was part of that conversation. And so, without hesitation, she said, "I'd be honored to be a part of it. Any way I can help, let me know. I'm all for this. This is past due that we try to tackle this thing." And so the folks that contacted her said, "Matter of fact, well, hey, we need you to basically be a bridge in some ways to our community," and I can't tell you what all she said or didn't say, but whatever she said and didn't say helped give way for the creation of the official Emmett Till Memorial Commission, which composed of 18 people, Black and white, from all over the county.
JD: Wow.
BS: Yeah. And when the official Commission comprised-- these folks were somewhat diverse, not necessarily by age. I mean, everybody there was a seasoned citizen, as they say. But outside of that, you got folks from various socioeconomic backgrounds, different life experiences, yet, all of them were natives of Tallahatchie County, and if they weren't native, they've been there for a considerable amount of time.
And so the more you delve into the conversations that were held and the lives of the people that were having these conversations, the more borderline miraculous it kind of seems because you're talking about people who served on the commission that were landowners and were plantation owners having conversations with folks that had to sharecrop their land. They had to sit down and hear how they were impacted and affected by the world around them when they were growing up, and they were at an age where they could still very clearly remember those experiences. And I won't tell you that those conversations were always just so peaceful and kumbaya.
JD: Well, they shouldn’t be, I mean.
BS: Yeah, and they weren't. Yeah, sometimes those conversations got very passionate. Thankfully, nothing violent. Nobody ever choke-slammed anybody or anything like that. But yeah, I mean, sometimes folks got up and left the table or whatever. But thankfully, they would be back for the next meeting.
JD: That's great.
BS: Or they'd come back to the table later that meeting. If nothing else, I think it did show a commitment and a desire to at least try to begin working on the way we treat each other.
JD: Right.
The late Mr. Jerome G. Little at the Emmett Till Memorial Commission public apology to the Till family in 2007. Photo Credit: This image was taken from the 2007 video from the Emmett Till Memorial Commission.
Click here to watch a 2006 interview of the late Mr. Jerome G. Little by the William Winter Institute of Racial Reconciliation (start with video 24 and watch in descending order.).
BS: Fast forward and a resolution was drawn and shared on the courtyard steps in 2007, as an apology to members of the Till family, or remaining members of the Till family, two of whom that were present and accepted on behalf of the Till family, where the late Simeon Wright and Reverend Wheeler Parker. Now Reverend Parker and the late Simeon Wright, in addition to being family members of Emmett Till, were in a lot of ways, they were victims, too. Wheeler actually accompanied Emmett from Chicago. When everything happened at the storefront, Wheeler Parker and Simon Wright were right there. And when he was taken out of the late Mose Wright's home, Wheeler Parker and Simeon Wright were there, in the next room over. In addition to them being family members, they're part of that story more so than most folks.
And they were impacted in ways that I don't think anybody else, other than Emmett’s mom and other very close family members, would have been. So to have them buy into us, trying to work through this bowl of spaghetti, so to speak, and to do it voluntarily, right? It wasn't, at least to my knowledge, it wasn't done for political gain or to have political leverage or monetary gain of any sort and type. I think that helped, in some ways, their willingness to hear where we're coming from and participate to the degree that they could and would and they did. To my knowledge, during the process of reconciliation, Wheeler Parker and the late Simeon Wright, a couple of times they came down to Tallahtachie County, and one of those times it called for the group to go to Money (where the storefront was). And I think that was the first time either of them went back to Money and went back to the store since everything happened. So, in some ways, and I don't want to put words in my mouth, but I think in some ways they kind of acted as a means of them being able to better come to grips with some of that stuff.
And so to have a vehicle or to have a mechanism that would give way to those two men who were directly impacted by this, if nothing else, I think that in and of itself is to be noted and looked upon with some sense of admiration, but not to be complacent, right? Because to say, “I'm sorry” for something like that, it doesn't change the fact that it happened. It doesn't change the fact that it two guys that were absolutely guilty were found not guilty and got paid to say they did it with no legal recourse.
So they then called us to not let this be where the story ends for us. And I think that helped to give way to the restoration of the courtroom. But to do it in a way, for one, it looks as close to 1955 as possible, as a standing point of reset for us and our community, but also to serve as a community space going forward. But then also to have a place that acts as a day-to-day location to uplift this narrative.
And by this narrative, I mean, the Emmett Till story/tragedy, but also giving light to some of the stuff that we as a community are trying to work through within that framework. And so that helped create the Emmett Till Interpretive Center. And so now we've been able to have this kind of conversation with people from all over the world as well as in our own backyards and neighborhoods. But we've also been able to engage youth in the importance of storytelling and trying to use the arts as a way and means of dealing with the past but while also crafting and creating your own narrative and your own stories.
And so in past few years, we've been able to host summer programs or summer fellowship programs where the youth they use photo-documentaries as their medium for storytelling while also learning a little bit more about the civil rights movement. More specifically, the fact that the Civil Rights Movement wasn't just Martin King, Rosa Parks, and some of the folks that made the books or the history books, that the Civil Rights Movement was about quote-unquote, "regular folk," black and white that worked together and fought this system or at least tried to fight against the system and didn't get anything for it, other than, at least, the future impact being made as it relates to change for folks getting the right to vote and things being at least a little bit better than they were.
So we uplift that because it's important for all people to know that you being the only one very rarely means that no one else cares. And so if you care, do your best to find other folks that care, and you all work together, and you all do the best you can to cultivate change in your community. And if you're consistent, you stand a chance of actually making a lasting difference wherever you are, no matter how bad it's been. And so that is where we are at present. We're still trying to find ways to keep this thing going. We're also trying to find ways to-- we hope in the relatively near future to get National Park designation. We'll see.
Interior of Emmett Till Interpretive Center, Sumner, Mississippi. Vandalized marker sign opposite wall. Photo: Jennifer Drinkwater, 2019
BS: Exactly. Yeah, it was literally about two weeks ago they had the rededication ceremony out near the river site where [Emmett Till’s] body was recovered. So hopefully, we're not forced to replace any more signs due to vandalism. We'll see. It kind of compounds the tragedy of the story in and of itself that especially that particular marker has been vandalized to the degree that it has. You can see one of the older ones right there. And I think that was one of the first ones that got national attention in 2016. And so now we're at a place where we're looking at other ways to appropriately interpret some of these sites with the hope that it calls for people to look at where they are, look at their neck of the woods, so to speak, or look at the places they inhabit and be willing to do an honest investigation there and, if at all possible, call people together to do good work and change all those places for the better.
JD: So you said that you feel like if this place hadn't existed and you hadn't gone through that process, you don't feel like there would be as many Black-owned businesses on the Square. Can you talk about the relationship you think between those two things, how that's changed?
BS: Sure. Sure. So to my knowledge, and again, I'm 34 years old. To my knowledge, this Square has never been-- well, at least the businesses of this Square had never been owned and operated by black folks. And I don't want to give misinformation. So if I say this and it's wrong, please forgive me.
JD: Oh, sure.
BS: But if I remember correctly, one of the first businesses that opened on Square, at least relatively newer businesses that opened was the Summer Grille, It’s a restaurant, a locally restaurant owned and operated by a lady by name of Vanessa Pimpton, who's a native of this area. She's an African American lady who was born and raised in the area. She currently owns and operates that space. That space opened in either 2007 or maybe around 2009 or 2010 somewhere in there. But it wasn't long after this started happening. You fast forward and around-- I'm going to say in 2016, this space beside us opened as a salon/spar kind of space, which is also owned and operated by an African American lady who has family from the area. Well, I think her husband is actually from the area, and they've been here for a number of years now. I want to say that having those conversations gave way to people developing at least some sense of, I want to say, communal understanding. It's a little bit easier to hear a person's heart desires when you believe there's commonality between two persons or between two groups that didn't exist because, frankly, you were divided for whatever reason. And I think in doing so, I can't say for certain that because that whoever originally owned that space woke up and said, "You know what? I want to help a black person [in business?]". I can't say that. But I do believe that the person who owned it or managed that space or had the deed to that space could have possibly had conversations with folks that were part of the Commission or folks that were very closely tied to people that were official members. But you also have folks that participated that they just weren't members per se.
And I think that helped again warm the environment in such a way that would allow for folks, Black folks, in particular, to be able to get some of these spaces and use them in a way that they hadn't been doing prior to.
JD: Right. Maybe it helped to establish a little bit of community trust--
BS: Possibly. I don't know how to phrase it.
JD: --or trust might be a strong word.
BS: Well, I mean, it's appropriate though.
JD:. So when you come here-- are you here every day?
BS: Yeah. Unless I'm sick or something like that. Yeah. I'm the delivery person, or on tour.
JD: When you come here-- this is kind of a weird artsy question, but whatever. Just what feelings do you have in here, you know what I mean? How does this place makes you feel?
BS: This place makes me feel-- I don't know if feel is the right word, but I'll tell you what it makes me do internally. It makes me look at where we've been, where we are, and where I would like us to go, and whether or not we're really going there. And what I mean by that is, this space exists primarily because folks took time, be they unified in their thoughts and hopes and feelings, or if they all had different agendas altogether, but still chose to at least say, "Hey, this is what we're going to do as a cohort." It might be a little bit of both. When I'm here, I can't help but think about Emmett Till, but then I also can't help but think about, to a large degree Mamie Till, and Mose Wright, and the late Simeon Wright. And Wheeler Parker, and how their story, and their tragedy, and them being a family being impacted by race and racism, is one that's not alien to a whole bunch of people whose stories have not been heard or shared, definitely not to the magnitude of the Emmett Till tragedy has. And that's not me throwing salt or pepper on Emmett Till, or those unspoken, right? It speaks to the fact that there's so much that has happened to so many people, that it's unfair for us to ignore that reality. And I think in a way, this space tries not to ignore that reality, which is good.
Now, having said that, this space also brings me to a point where it makes me question, what is the absolute right thing to do? Because I'm a person of faith, and I do believe as sure there's an up, there's a down, there's a left, there's a right, and yet we live in a circle of world where basically, if you go so far, you're bound to end up right. You know what I mean? And depending on the direction you're going, in my opinion, if you don't have a mapped-out destination stopping point, you can use the excuse of moving. I mean, you can be confused with the notion that moving equates to moving forward or moving towards the right road.
And there are some folks that do have concerns that this space and this work is exploitative. Hey, I was skeptical up to the point-- at least until I started actually coming here or working here. My concern was this is another child and another family whose tragedy is about to get exploited by folks. And I don't think that's the case, but I am concerned that we as an organization, and more important as a community, aren't taking steps to ensure that we live out the “I'm sorrys” because it's one thing for me to say, "I'm sorry," but what course of action am I taking to ensure that it's not going to happen again? But then to make sure that the place and spaces I take up are better than they were when I found them.
And it's my belief that some of the things that we've been doing are good. I just want to be sure that our minds and hearts are always set on ensuring that the work we do and the way we go about the work really does speak to, and positions our community and each other, to actually cultivate racial harmony. And I can't say that without a shadow of a doubt that that's the mindset and the point of action that all of us are centered on. This space represents all of that to me.
Community Space, Emmett Till Interpretive Center, Sumner, Mississippi. Photo: Jennifer Drinkwater, 2019.
Current and upcoming ETIC events that you can experience, attend, and support:
Women of the Movement - a new ABC series you can stream online. Season 1 explores the life and impact of Mamie Till-Mobley, Emmett's mother.
Thoughtful Thursdays - Mr. Benjamin Saulberry goes live on Facebook at 1 pm each Thursday with current thoughts about the work of the ETIC.
Visit the upcoming traveling exhibition Emmett Till & Mamie-TIll Mobley: Let the World See in 2022. This exhibition begins at the Indianapolis Children’s Museum before traveling to Alabama; Washington D.C.; Georgia; Illinois; and Mississippi.
Remembering Emmett Till in the Mississippi Delta - a free webinar discussing the importance of documenting Civil Rights stories in the Mississippi Delta, specifically around Emmett Till and how his life and memory have been commemorated.
Sign a petition to support the campaign to establish an Emmet Till and Mamie Till-Mobley National Park in Chicago and the Mississippi Delta. Learn more about the effort here.
I wholeheartedly encourage you to visit their website if you can’t make it to Sumner anytime soon. And when you do make it to Tallahatchie County, here are a few recommendations for your trip.
Learn more about Sumner and see some paintings inspired by this conversation.